But that day, my colleague told me that, "Oh, so your dress is short. The Taliban has already entered the city. You don't have any male members of your family accompanying you. So you either get a taxi or let me or let any one of us to accompany you back home." I didn't feel good about that. Maybe that was so common. Maybe that was so basic, but I didn't feel good about it because it was the moment that I feared of losing my freedom. I feared of losing my independence or whatever I was trying to build out of myself. I did not listen to them, but then they were so worried about me and it was so obvious. They were not talking selfishly, but it was just the concern of me reaching back home safely, right?
So, I tried to get out with a colleague. We walked on the street. That morning, the same street, you could see so many women with different colorful dresses, but it was emptied. It was the weekend and people, from people, I mean, men, they were looking at me as if like I'm crazy or I'm walking to on the city naked. I mean, they were like, "Why? Why are you here?" I mean, it's such a great question on their eyes I could see and it was shocking for me, but we get into public transport and we get back home, and my mom was... She hugged me and she cried.
She must have very vivid memories in front of the Taliban, whereas you were just six, seven years old when the U.S. invasion essentially ousted them, right?
Yeah.
Did she share any of her experiences with you in terms of things she went through or...
No. When I was born, it was 1994. It was just the beginning of the Taliban taking over the country and they were all left for Iran. They immigrated to Iran and they were there till 2003 and then we came back to Afghanistan. So, she doesn't remember any of the things that the Taliban have done, I think so, or maybe she never shared head experience as we talked, right?
So as we're taping this, USA Today is obviously trying to get you over to the United States. We're here in Ukraine. Like many other Afghan journalists, thinkers, academics, civil society people, people with connection to U.S. military, translators, contractors, everyone's been trying to get them out. Most of them are not going directly to the United States. But as I said, as we're taping this we're very much hoping to get you there. What do you want to do there? I know you're a journalist and you obviously write for us, so I know what you will be doing, but what's your ambitions in a place like the United States, which you've never been to?
I don't think of the country where I'm heading to. I'm thinking of how to help people. I don't want to be a nationalist, because I never say that I belong to Afghanistan specifically. I belong to Iran. I belong to Bangladesh or I belong to Ukraine. For me, I think home is where I feel safe, where I feel comfortable, where I feel happy to live, right? And that's what matters to me. So I don't think of the country that I'm heading to, but I think of how to help people, especially right now, it doesn't matter which country, because there are different countries coming to Afghanistan. They have been to Afghanistan trying to help people. I mean, they took a large number or maybe almost all the educated people, educated, I mean, those who were working, those who were independent, those who were making a life that would matter to them to the most by working at the government, by working with NGOs, by working with international organizations, right?
I cannot say all of them because I know I can estimate how many of them are still trapped in the country, but I can say majority of them are evacuated from Afghanistan getting into different countries. So I try to maybe use my skills of being the voices of them, because a country like Afghanistan, I mean, we, as citizens, we could predict that there would be war going on in Afghanistan between the Taliban and the government, but we could not predict or we could not expect the country would fall into the Taliban this quick. So I want to be the voices of those who are already outside the country. And of course, I can use my contacts inside the country who are just still trapped.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Yeah. Just to bring it back to your experiences over the last few days. I mean, we were just been discussing amongst ourselves just how in the week in the run up to the fall of Kabul, I was planning to go on vacation for a couple of weeks. We were planning a story, a feature story around, okay, what happens to the arts and music and culture and education if and when eventually the Taliban takes over? Because it certainly looked like it was going that way, but thought we had three months, six months, maybe a year. We just didn't know. And then, of course, everything just accelerated extremely quickly and we realized that we couldn't do the story. In fact, we had to find a way for you to get out of Kabul, right? Just the last few days you've been filling me in about some of the things that you had to do, burn all your papers, any kind of trace, because your house got searched that could connect you to the Taliban, IDs, whatever, journalism certificate, all that stuff.
Yeah, I was just hoping that you could give a bit more detail for people who aren't going to hear that side just about some of the things that you had to do to prepare to leave not just, "I got to get back together," but you had to say goodbye to your parents, to your 18-year-old brother you're very close with and one-year-old baby sister. How did you do that? Because thinking you may not ever see them again.
Fatema Hosseini
It's not easy, but I had to because there were so many rumors about the Taliban searching houses or maybe some of them were fact. We don't know. So the day I received a call from you asking me that whether I would be able to leave the country in that day, it could be several hours later. I was thinking literally that, "Okay. If that flight does not happen, I'm going to stay with my family no matter what," because my father had served the country's national army for 11 years. His life was more in danger than my life, right? I was just a journalist and I was trying to get out of the country because I did not want to lose my freedom. I did not want to stay at home because I had so many plans in my mind for my life.
Kim Hjelmgaard
In Afghanistan?
Fatema Hosseini
In Afghanistan. Exactly. Most of the times when I tried to talk to my friends, we were argumenting over me staying back home or leaving the country because I was not used to... I usually would tell my friend that I'm not used to Afghan people, though I, myself, is an Afghan, but in back of my head, I was trying to make plans of staying in the country because I was enjoying the life I was leaving. So after I received your call, I went back home and I tried to pack my stuffs. I realized that I have a small suitcase and maybe around 80 books of different languages, and most of them were in Farsi and English, of course. On my room's wall, I still have a picture of it. There were my pictures with my friends that I had taken and I was pasting it on the wall. I was trying to-
Kim Hjelmgaard
You mean like little photos that you just-
Fatema Hosseini
Exactly. A corner of memories.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Yeah. Yeah.
Fatema Hosseini
But then my mom was so worried and my sister called me, she's in Canada and she called me crying that I have to burn those pictures, all the documents that I have. Me and my sister, we were trying to get from different organizations through going through different courses, trainings, et cetera. So the documents-
Kim Hjelmgaard
All evidence of your education.
Fatema Hosseini
Exactly. Certificates.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Yes.
Fatema Hosseini
She was telling me to burn them all. It was not easy. I put down all the pictures. My mom was crying. She was like, "Don't burn those pictures. You can take it with you." But then again, my sister was saying that if the Taliban checks her suitcase, she's going to be gone, right? Without getting up road, she will be somewhere or she might be dead, right? So I burned all the pictures, but books, I could not burn them. Documents, I could not burn them. So the books, I called one of my friends and I was telling him that, "Can you take the books with you?" He came and took all my books with him. But for documents, I took it with me on a suitcase. So that day, I went to the airport. On the way, I was just worried about the documents, my cell phone, because I received a message that please do not show your cell phone if the Taliban asked you to.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Who sent you that message, just a friend or...
Fatema Hosseini
No, a security source.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Okay.
Fatema Hosseini
A security source. So he told me that not to show my cell phone or to delete every single data I have in my cell phone, especially if I have any foreign contacts, I have to delete it. But my phone, there was not just one contact. There were maybe around hundreds of, like 150 of them. Most of my friends are foreigners and I cannot delete their numbers, right?
Kim Hjelmgaard
If you delete my number, then I guess we're not sitting here.
Fatema Hosseini
Exactly. So I could not do it. So I took my phone with me without deleting any data. I took my documents in my backpack and we were heading to airport. Once we reached there, I received a call from a Ukrainian force, who's supposed to pick me up. He said that the Taliban did not allow him to land on Kabul and he went back to Pakistan. So he asked me to go back home and not to get out until I receive his call.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Yeah. We had our own little plan, in case I didn't hear from you, what you should do. I have to say, you were quite, I thought, was being overcautious sometimes because you're just used to that, right? You're used to living and working in a country, where yes, the Taliban was there. They weren't in power, but there was an element around, right? In retrospect, do you think that you did put yourself in danger by going to meet Taliban militants or...
Fatema Hosseini
No. No. Okay. Okay. There are three things that I want to share. The day Kabul has fallen to Taliban, I went to office and came back. The next day, my mom cried and she did not allow me to go to office. But the day after, because that day, it was one Monday, but I thought it's Friday because Friday is weekend there, so I thought it's Friday and I could not get out of the house. It was so weird for me, because usually on the weekend I would still be out. There wasn't a day that I would spend at home. Sometimes I would miss staying at home because I wanted to sleep, but then I was like, "Okay. I do have enough time to sleep, but I have to meet this friend. I have to meet that person." That day, the whole day I was at home and I thought that I'm so depressed that I cannot wake up. The next day, I told my mom that I'm going to be out. She allowed me to be out, but with her hijab. So it was a very, very, very long hijab.
Kim Hjelmgaard
What day is this? What day is this now?
Fatema Hosseini
Tuesday.
Kim Hjelmgaard
It's Tuesday. Right.
Fatema Hosseini
Two days after the Taliban took over Kabul.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Right.
Fatema Hosseini
Yeah. My colleague, he came after me. He took a taxi and then we both went together to office. He was not used to wearing Afghani, we call it perahan tunban for men, but he was wearing it. We were just joking. I was like, "Oh, you look good on that." And then he was like, "You should not wear that hijab," because I, myself, wasn't feeling comfortable wearing that, right? So we went to office and I saw my female colleague. She was dressing up the same as she used to wear and was like, "Wow." She looked at me and I hated myself because of wearing all those dresses, which I didn't want to wear.
I was like, "How could you come to office like this?" She was like, "If the Taliban wants to kill me because of my dress, let them kill me because it's the freedom I have. I don't want to lose it." She was so brave and I thought that, "Okay. Maybe I'm just overcautious,' and I disliked it, but it was just because, I mean, most part of it was because of my parents. They were so worried and I didn't want them to worry about me. That's the first thing.
The second thing is my mom, the day I left for airport, I remember asking her that, "Are you afraid of the Taliban?" We just had a very normal conversation. She was like, "No, they're humans and I'm not afraid of them. They're so wild, they're so violent, but I'm not afraid of them and they should not do anything to me because I'm wearing hijabs. I'm completely according to whatever they want, especially when it comes to dress up, so they should not do anything to me." I was like, "Okay." I just took the first sentence of her, they're the same humans as we are, right? But why this human have to be so violent, so wild, because on the way to the airport, I could see them. I could see the guys who were the same age as me, like 25 to 27, but they were crazy about opening fires on people. They were crazy to beat people to death.
How could you do that? How could you behave like that, right? Maybe you are receiving orders from your commander, but just think for a second, how can you beat a person to death? The women beside me that day when I was going to airport, one of the Taliban, when he wanted to lash either mistakenly or intentionally, he just beat her and her dress was torn. I could see her flesh. He tried to be careless, but he couldn't. I'm sure the Taliban who beat people to death, who were not used to beat, but they receive orders, I'm sure they cannot get a proper sleep. Why do you need to do that? We don't know.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Yeah. Yeah. So just to come back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier-
Fatema Hosseini
Sorry. It's so out the point.
Kim Hjelmgaard
No, no, it's your story. You need to talk about it in a way that you need to talk about it. Your family is currently soon, we hope, on route to Kyiv in Ukraine. They're inside the airport in Kabul. They're safe. They were along with about almost 50 other people, essentially helped extracted, whatever word you want to use, to get inside the gates in the airport by Ukrainian special forces. You were telling me a little bit earlier that your parents and your brother's only 18, that they... I don't know how much time they've spent outside the country. I don't know how their English is. This might be somewhat of a different transition for them than someone like you who are cosmopolitan. You've got one degree. You're working towards another hopefully, right? How do you think they're going to fit in wherever they end up? And we don't even know where they're going to end up.
Fatema Hosseini
So my parents, they spent, I would say, half their lives in Iran. They share the same culture, language. I don't know whether to say same or similar culture or language as people in Afghanistan. They have been to Pakistan. So in terms of-
Kim Hjelmgaard
Have they been to Europe at all?
Fatema Hosseini
No. No.
Kim Hjelmgaard
United States?
Fatema Hosseini
No.
Kim Hjelmgaard
No. Asia? No? Never left the Middle East region? Yeah.
Fatema Hosseini
Yeah, exactly. This is the first time coming here. So in terms of culture, I think it would not be that difficult, especially for my parents to get adjusted because they were not in Afghan. As I'm saying, they were not in Afghanistan not most of their lives, but they were not in Afghanistan since the very beginning. It's not the first time for them to get to travel to another country.
Kim Hjelmgaard
Yeah. They have lived in a different country. Yeah.
Fatema Hosseini
Exactly. But in terms of language, they may face difficulties because my parents cannot speak English. Only my brother can speak English and I-
Kim Hjelmgaard
He's good at it. During the traction operation that took place last night, your brother... I mean, you and I were essentially watching it in real time. As various people were orchestrating their removal, we were all in this WhatsApp chat, watching it in real time, seeing what people were seeing, seeing the photos, seeing the commanders go here, do this. And then, of course, the people that are trying to leave are saying, "We can't go here. There's Taliban here. They're pushing us along," et cetera, et cetera. But it was really interesting because it was your brother who's only 18 who raised his hand a little bit and started talking to the military people who were helping them escape. I thought his written English was quite good actually.
Fatema Hosseini
Thank you. But he has to find his way out. I mean, there are no other option left for them, right? He has to help my parents out. He has to help himself out, right? I think he has been giving out his best that he could do. But yeah, I think they have a long way to go.
Claire Thronton
Fatema's parents and little brother and sister made it safely to Ukraine shortly after this interview took the place. Fatema made it to the United States on September 11th. Although her home has been taken from her, her voice hasn't. She continues reporting. You can get more from Fatema and Kim in an in-depth story I've linked to. I've also included an article from USA Today's editor in chief Nicole Carroll that details how our newsroom coordinated efforts to get Fatema out.
If you liked this episode of 5 Things, write us a review on Apple Podcasts letting us know what you liked about it. One recent review from WillKei reads, "Loved the Sunday episode about Gen Z and millennial investing. Interesting and useful. Love Claire Thornton's conversational style. She always brings us the facts." It was so great to read that review. I'm really glad you liked last Sunday's episode. We got a lot of positive responses about Sunday's investing episode actually. If you want to listen to another episode about personal finance, I'm linking to a throwback episode in the show notes, why more young people of color should be investing in the stock market. Check it out. If you're a big fan of 5 Things like WillKei, the reviewer I just shouted out, tell your family, tell your neighbors. I know recommendations from other people are one of the biggest ways folks learn about new podcasts. Anyway, Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with 5 Things you need to know for Monday. Thanks for listening. I'm Claire Thornton. I'll see you next time.
